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José · Axe Wielding Maniac Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 293

ok i watched a couple of documentaries recently highlighting 'Neo Nazi' or 'White Power' music. and one thing that struck me is that all the music (not the message, which in the cases i've witnessed is completely repulsive and not based in any kind of tangible reality) is ALWAYS shockingly bad. whatever genre it's in.

and it got me wondering if there were any cases of any of these bands actually MUSICALLY appealling to anyone outside of that culture?

what a dilemma that could cause for one...!

Teasy · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:49 am Post subject:

The obvious answer is no, and ultimately I couldn't listen to it objectively. If anyone watched the louis theroux episode last week they would have spied the 2 thirteen year old girls being taught the nazi songs and it made me so mad at their ignorant mother.
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José · Axe Wielding Maniac Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 293

yeah i've seen that. they're called 'Prussian Blue'. sad, sad sight to see. it's child abuse really to do that to a child's mind...surely?

the whole documentary is in 3 parts on youtube...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Me9f66yEKuk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-py80gn7yds

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6wGQEFUyzrs

Bola · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:41 am Post subject:

Skrewdriver appealed to a lot of punk fans before their politics became pretty obvious. I have had arguments with people on other forums who think it is okay to listen to the bands music even if they don't actually agree with the political content. They just seem to be apologists really.

As for Prussian Blue that's just a sad case of brainwashing by the parents in my view. Or I hope it is as I doubt even when older those two will be unable to think for themselves.
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Cavey · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:27 am Post subject:

What a great question, José. It's got me thinking about the dilemma I faced when coming across pro-IRA songs. One of my favourite songs is Willie McBride and I was singing it one day while at work in an Irish social club and a punter said to me 'You do realise that McBride is a pro-IRA anthem don't you?' I stopped singing it immediately even though I loved it. I'm so anti the IRA (they can change their name/wear suits - they stay the same) that it spoiled my love of the song. I never investigated to see if there was any truth in the matter. I was just immediately put off. Sometimes I catch myself singing it in my head. I should investigate really. People can distance themselves from the artist and his politics if they love their work but I can't. As for the parents of those two girls? It saddens me. I can't even be bothered to put them down. All I will say is that you need a licence for a pet but anybody can have children.
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matt611 · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:31 am Post subject:

I think lyrics / lyrical content is an extremely important element of a song so it's very hard (and wrong) to disassociate it from the music, really.

If a song is about something you really don’t agree with then you can still enjoy it if it is eloquently delivered.. “Meat is murder”, for example .. but I doubt this applies to much white-power music..

Cavey · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:45 am Post subject:

Too true, Matty. I did some research on my song. It's only taken me 18 yrs! and it turns out that the UVF not the IRA see Willie McBride as an anthem. I can only find links to the UVF (also terroists) so I still can't enjoy it. The thing is the song is really about the pointless loss of life that war causes - I was looking at it from that angle but it's been taken and twisted into something else. Rather like Hitler's swastika except in music form - which takes us back to the point of this thread. I knew that I would get there eventually...there is no way that I can enjoy music with sentiments like that behind it. But then i've created this whole new dilemma now where a song might have been written for one purpose but used for another. *head explodes*
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Johnny Anarchy · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject:

Good thread. I don’t think you can enjoy or even listen to music that has been written from a racist/ fascist point of view because the message is always louder than the song. Even for people who like pretty brutal rock rhythms, which tend to underpin every White Power song, it’s pretty clear where the band making that sound comes from. Musically it’s a dead end anyway unless it takes from other forms - and musical interbreeding with “black” music (i.e. everything bar some folk tunes) is as unacceptable to Nazis as interracial mixing.

Cavey’s point about songs with sectarian meaning is very interesting. Lots of Irish songs have meaning to some people. We all know songs like ‘The Sash’ but I was surprised by ‘Willie McBride’. And what about ‘All Around My Hat’ by Steeleye Span which is an “IRA” song if I remember correctly? Does that mean we can’t play them? I wouldn’t feel comfortable hearing anything about “fenians” or that was overtly ‘green’ or ‘orange’ but could live with other things if the meaning is less clear. I’d be careful though about humming them on the Shankill or Falls Road though, or in Irish clubs here!

Bovine Juice · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject:

It is difficult to divorce the lyrics from the music if they're either overly silly or loathesome and I have had a similar argument about Skrewdriver with someone only last Tuesday (I was anti-the band). However I remember watching Romper Stomper, a terrific film about a group of Aussie Nazi skins and starring Russell Crowe and within the context of the film I did find the oi music soundtrack extremely engaging - it was only when I stopped to analyse the screamed lyrics that they offended. Not defending the political stance obviously. Similarly I'm a great fan of Irish music and have at times had issues akin to Cavey's.

matt611 · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject:

Re: That docu on white-power music. It’s a while since I’ve seen it, but alongside all the shaved-head, thrash noise nonsense wasn’t there also some female Scandinavian singer-songwriter who sounded quite good (musically if not morally)

Westie · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject:

matt611 · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject:

On a similar tip, has anyone seen American History X ... ?? Thats truely powerful...

Cavey · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject:

Is that the film where the protagonist's brother gets shot in the college toilet at the end? I was haunted by that because it was so pointless. Isn't Edward Norton in it? His performance was amazing in that film (if it's the one i'm thinking of) - so far removed from himself. Is Samuel L jackson in it also?
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matt611 · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject:

Vodka-Volauvent · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject:

I've heard a few things from various sources about the early days of punk in the 70s being mostly populated by right wing fascists. Apparently the left wing views that you normally associate with the movement of punk only came about quite late in the day with the bands like the Clash et al making their anti-racist statements known to all, especially at that infamous anti-racist gig that was organised to not just to raise awareness but to try and irradicate racism in punk music.
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dookerdoo · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject:

i don't know about good but that scene in phoenix nights where the country band they've booked for their western night turn out to be a racist act is pretty funny...

"turn em off! turn em off!"
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matt611 · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject:

I thought Borat's "Throw the jew down the well" was quite funny too...

Is the problem maybe that people take these skinhead bands just a wee bit too seriously... ??

matt611 · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject:

Just to be clear. I’m not saying their message is not abhorrent .. but surely if these people were simply ridiculed (rather than being the subject of austere hand-wringing by the Guardianistas) then very few people would be compelled to follow them

dookerdoo · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject:

a guradianista writes:

hmm don't know about that matty. not the kind of thing you should really be shrugging off as misguided hijinx is it?

personally i don't know of any bands that hold these views and i'd quite like to keep it that way.
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matt611 · Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: